The interview covers the most pressing topics of the moment: AI Mode, Search Console, the volatility following the June 2025 Core Update, and the increasingly central role of branding in staying visible in an ecosystem that no longer shows the numbers
Eleventh installment of SEO Confidential. After our conversation with Danny Goodwin in the previous episode, today we go straight to the heart of the international debate on the future of online search, with one of the most followed and authoritative voices in the industry: Barry Schwartz.
Founder of Search Engine Roundtable and news editor of Search Engine Land, Schwartz has been, for over twenty years, one of the most reliable sources for understanding what really happens in Google’s corridors. Every day he analyzes updates, patents, official communications and anomalous algorithm behavior, turning them into actionable insights for SEOs, agencies, publishers and digital entrepreneurs.
At a time when organic traffic seems to be slipping away like sand through our fingers, zero-click results are becoming the norm and AI-generated content is starting to monopolize the SERPs, we need more than ever to listen to voices capable of reading the signals beneath the surface.
SEO Confidential was created precisely for this: to give space to the opinions, even divergent ones, of those who observe the changes in search engines every day – or, more accurately, in AI answer engines.
In this interview Barry Schwartz tackles the most burning issues of the present: shrinking transparency, disappearing data, an evolving Search Console, the ever more dominant role of the brand, and the implications for those still working with traditional SEO models. All of this while AI Overviews and AI Mode reshape the very concept of visibility.
A conversation not to be missed for anyone working on the web, especially entrepreneurs, professionals and SMBs who want to understand how to face the changes underway.
Because today it is no longer enough to optimize pages: you need to rethink your entire digital strategy, your communication and, in many cases, the very model of your online presence.
“SEOs will have to learn to tell the story of the value of mentions, not just clicks”, Barry Schwartz told us
Barry, in your work you have often documented how Google is becoming less transparent in providing useful data to SEOs. If Search Console does not distinguish between data coming from AI Overviews and data generated by AI Mode, how can we make informed decisions? And how can we do SEO if the numbers are missing?
Google is less transparent precisely about what it wants to keep hidden. In general, we have more information today than before, but on elements like featured snippets, AI Overviews or AI Mode, for some reason – and I think we all know which one – Google does not show the data.
Google claims these features drive better, more qualified traffic, but there is no way to verify it. So how can SEOs prove ROI to their clients?
They have to rely on impressions and set up their reports the way it was done with traditional media: newspapers, TV, billboards. Brand mentions become central, and SEO reports must adapt to these new forms of visibility, which today cannot be tracked.
The introduction of the 24-hour comparison in Search Console finally offers a native tool for near real-time analysis: in your opinion, can it really help SEOs react faster, or is it just a token gesture?
Google has stated it wants to show fresher data, and this can be a concrete advantage, especially for sites like news outlets, where it is crucial to know whether a piece of content is performing well at the exact moment it matters. Monitoring how trends develop over a 24-hour window can make a big difference.
What’s more, having access to fresh data lets you spot and fix problems before they become structural damage, which is very useful for those working in SEO. So yes, more timely data and better filters are, on the whole, an important step forward for professionals in the industry.
Now that AIs generate synthetic answers without visible links and only give space to the most recognizable and trusted brands, does it still make sense to talk about SEO as we have always understood it? Or have we already entered a phase that requires an entirely new strategy, closer to branding than to technical optimization?
We are probably entering a new phase, especially when it comes to how SEOs must communicate results and ROI (return on investment).
It becomes essential to highlight the brand’s presence in search results, even when it is not possible to track everything down to the last click. Brand mentions, visibility, recognizability: these are the elements that today can lead to a conversion, even indirectly.
SEOs will know how to adapt, as they always have in the face of change.
The Google Core Update of June 2025 recorded one of the highest levels of volatility in recent years, with cross-cutting impacts across all industries. In your opinion, is Google trying to re-establish a new quality balance in the SERPs, or are we facing a more selective process, where only the strongest brands will have a future?
I haven’t analyzed all the data in depth yet, but I will soon. What is certain is that the update seemed significant to me and, in some cases, it favored sites that had been hit by the September 2023 helpful content update, allowing a partial recovery. And that is an important signal.
It remains to be seen whether these positive signals will last. Who gained ground? Who, instead, lost visibility?
Core Updates can be very important for site owners, but they often create confusion: every project can respond differently, and what for Google is a technical adjustment can feel like a sudden collapse to someone. I don’t think they are designed to be radical, but for certain sites the impact can still be very strong.
Considering that the signals rewarded by the algorithms – such as authority, structure, consistency – are the same ones that also feed LLM answers, do you believe Core Updates are also becoming a way to penalize those who are not useful to AIOs and AI Mode?
We know that AI Mode and AI Overviews are now fully integrated into Google Search. We know that Core Updates do have an impact on the sites used to feed AIO results.
Google, however, never talks about penalties when it comes to core updates. It prefers to say that it “rewards” the sites that best meet its quality criteria. But, of course, anyone who sees themselves outranked by a “rewarded” competitor may perceive that change as an outright penalty.
Many SEOs observed a recurring anomaly during this update: some sites recorded a sudden traffic spike in the days right before a drastic drop. In your opinion, are these intentional tests by Google to gather signals before penalizing, or is it just a coincidence?
Google releases updates all the time, and most of them are never officially confirmed.
On my site I regularly track these unconfirmed updates and yes, before the official June 2025 update there was strong volatility.
I have asked Google for clarification several times, and the answer has always been the same: the updates that occur in the days before an official Core Update are not related to it.
Sure, it would make sense to think Google runs tests, but if it does, it probably conducts them weeks or months in advance, not on the immediate eve of a core update.
Barry, the arrival of browsers like Comet and the imminent launch of Operator by OpenAI seem to be pushing search outside of Google and into closed, AI-based environments. In your opinion, how real is the risk that Chrome will no longer be dominant in the coming years?
The real risk for Chrome does not come from these new browsers, but from possible antitrust measures that could be introduced in the future.
I don’t believe a start-up like Perplexity can really erode Chrome’s market share in a significant way. Also because the AI-based features offered by these new browsers can easily be replicated by Google, if and when it deems it necessary.
Will we ever have a sort of AI Search Console to measure impressions, content read and clicks within AI answers? Do you think platforms like Perplexity or ChatGPT will ever adopt such a tool, or is it more likely they will keep operating in total opacity so as not to undermine their competitive advantage?
It would be fantastic to have a Search Console or Webmaster Tools for ChatGPT, Perplexity and, yes, also for Google’s AI Mode.
Glenn Gabe recently published a post about it…
Will it happen? Maybe one day, but at the moment I don’t think it is a priority for any of them.
Everyone is focused on developing artificial intelligence and testing new user interfaces for AI search. In this context, investing in measurement tools for publishers does not seem to be at the top of the agenda.
With the “Pay per Crawl” model proposed by Cloudflare, there is now the possibility of charging for access to the content used to train AIs. In your opinion, is this a truly viable path for publishers and creators, or do those who refuse to be ‘plundered for free’ risk disappearing from the answers generated by language models?
I am very curious to see whether Cloudflare’s initiative will have a concrete impact.
Personally, I don’t mind if AI engines use my content, partly because I don’t live off the revenue from what I write. But for most sites I fully understand their concerns, and I believe they deserve to be compensated if their content is used to train these systems.
The risk, however, is real: sites that choose to block AI crawlers, especially the smaller ones, could lose visibility. It is a very delicate situation for many publishers, and I am glad that at least someone – like Cloudflare – is trying to propose alternative solutions.
The latest data shows that Google is still, by far, the main source of traffic for most sites, while AI-based answer engines generate less than 1%.
A mischievous question: is the real risk today chasing artificial intelligence trends too early while forgetting the fundamentals that continue to deliver real visibility?
Yes, if we look only at the numbers, it is a well-founded concern. But Google has already declared that AI Mode is the future of search.
Artificial intelligence is already changing, and will continue to deeply change, how SERPs work. For this reason, search marketing professionals must stay up to date, test, experiment and start investing time in these new environments, even if today they account for only 1% of traffic.
I think it makes sense to dedicate at least 10% of your time to that 1% of traffic, because it is bound to grow. And when that traffic increases, the investment will have to keep pace: from 10% we will move to 20, then 50, and so on.
From rankings to recognition: the new SEO paradigm speaks the language of brands
The interview with Barry Schwartz raises a question that concerns everyone: does it still make sense to talk about SEO as we have known it?
While Google grows increasingly opaque, updates are frequent but ambiguous, and traffic seems to shift toward synthetic answers with no visible source, the entire frame of reference is being transformed.
On the one hand, Search Console is introducing more timely and granular tools, which could help those working on current content or news. On the other, organic visibility is starting to resemble institutional advertising: you invest to be there, even if you cannot measure everything.
Barry highlights a fundamental shift: SEOs will have to learn to tell the story of the value of mentions, of perceived authority, of constant presence even in the absence of clicks.
A concept that blurs the boundaries between technical optimization and branding, between trackability and intuition, between SEO strategy and reputation strategy.
Some are hoping for a future AI Search Console capable of giving visibility back to the content consulted within AI answers. In the meantime, though, the new dynamics reward those who already have a strong name, a solid structure, a recognizable voice. In this scenario, SMBs and smaller publishers risk remaining invisible, unless they turn to up-to-date SEO consultants.
The question at this point is: what shape must SEO take to remain vital?
A more fluid, more cross-disciplinary form, capable of inhabiting even spaces without visible URLs. And above all, an SEO that knows how to converse with artificial intelligence, not just endure it.
Because the future of search is no longer a list of blue links, but an interactive, predictive, conversational environment. A future that waits for no one, and that changes direction like a chameleon under a rainbow.
Well then, we thank Barry for his availability and for his valuable insights.
SEO Confidential returns next week with a new guest and more uncomfortable questions for the most authoritative voices in the SEO community.
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